The tyranny of small differences is in full flower in the manosphere. Despite appearing all-but-indistinguishable to the feminist-indoctrinated majority, there’s a lot of internecine hate between the various tribes and cliques that have coalesced around various ideas. For instance, you have:

  • The “pure” PUAs — e.g., Mystery. Often derided as crypto-feminists and/or scam artists by everyone else.
  • The Anti-Gamers — e.g., Omega Virgin Revolt. Think game is a complete scam, deny that it exists. Seem as loony by everyone else.
  • The HBD/PUAs — e.g., Roissy. Denounced as hedonists by tradcons and socons.
  • The MRAs — e.g., The Spearhead, AVfM. Ridiculed as losers (mostly) and/or misogynists (occasionally) by other elements of the manosphere.
  • The Gurls — e.g., Susan Walsh. Seen as primarily interested in manipulating men into wifing-up ex-sluts s.t. women can land a Beta after sucking off their fill of Alpha cock.
  • The WNs — e.g., commenters Ryu, stonelifter. Seen as primarily interested in manipulating men into wifing-up ex-sluts s.t. white women can make white babies after sucking off their fill of Alpha cock.
  • The Tradcons/Socons — e.g., Oz Conservative. Seen as primarily interested in manipulating men into wifing-up ex-sluts s.t. women can form traditional families to prop up Western civilization after sucking off their fill of Alpha cock.
  • The Christian Girls — e.g., Alte. Very, very angry about anything non-biblical. Don’t really get along with anyone except The Gurls and Tradcons/Socons.
  • The Other Girls — e.g., CL, LGR. Derided as doormats by all other females.
  • The Other Other Girls — e.g., Haley, Grerp, and Sophia. I haven’t found anyone who hates them yet, but I probably just haven’t looked hard enough.

No offense to any sub-tribe I left out, example I didn’t cite, or to anyone who feels miscategorized.

MRAs vs. PUAs

A lot of this hate makes perfect sense to me, but I’ve always found the MRA-vs.-PUA thing (as seen in the Frost/Elam “debate”/blogwhoring) a little puzzling. Why do these two groups give a damn about one another at all? PUAs want to fuck sluts, MRAs want to reform laws — live and let live, right? What’s the problem?

I think the problem comes on two levels — the superficial and the philosophical. The superficial is probably more important. In short: MRAs and PUAs each realize and state uncomfortable truths about the other — to wit, MRAs don’t get as much tail as they’d like, and PUAs are putting the pussy on a pedestal — and this naturally engenders bad feelings. On a deeper level, PUAs are working to shield women from the consequences of feminist policies, thereby helping to perpetuate the policies that MRAs would like to overturn.


The basic charge leveled at MRAs by PUAs is that the former are whining losers of some stripe or other. This naturally gets the MRAs upset because, well, it’s sort of true. Very very few of us get as much or as good tail as we’d like … there are only so many HB10s to go around, and, as a read through “A Dead Bat in Paraguay” will show you, even the dedicated PUAs can go through long dry spells. So almost all MRAs (and — cough — PUAs) aren’t getting the quantity and quality of female affection that they’d like, and that our pornified culture suggests is readily available. Furthermore, MRAs do sort of whine. Or at least complain. Which is good and useful stuff, inasmuch as all change must come first from an idea, and then from the useful articulation of that idea — but which can sometimes look undignified.

MRAs fire back that PUAs are pedestalizing, supplicating, dancing monkeys. Which is also kind of true. It’s a bit hard to argue that you’re not overvaluing something that you study, obsess over, and work hard to acquire. PUAs might claim that they’re not overvaluing pussy because they’re “Skittles men” — this is true only if their time has no value. Since a PUA’s schtick is fundamentally reactive — figure out what women want, then give them that in the most efficient way possible — it’s also somewhat undignified and unmanly.

So, each side of the fight can unleash some hurtful truths at the other. To make matters worse, the mere existence of the other side can point out those truths. The DB PUA with the HB7 reminds the MRA that he isn’t getting as much tail as he’d like, and the MGHOW reminds the PUA that he’s devoting an awful lot of time and energy to women instead of his own interests. This sows the seeds of resentment.


At a deeper level, the goals of MRAs and PUAs are, if not directly opposed, at least somewhat at odds. MRAs want to overturn a legal and cultural regime that promotes the interests of women at the expense of men — including in the area of sexual choice. An important component of this is transferring some of the costs of that regime back on to women. To the extent that the suppression of men robs women of sexy mates, and therefore starves their hypergamy, MRAs see this side effect as a good thing: Unhappy women are more likely to support changes to the policies that are making them unhappy.

PUAs, on the other hand, not only directly benefit from the sexual liberation of women (for obvious reasons) but predicate their entire approach on insulating women from the romantic downsides of the feminist regime. PUAs pride themselves on giving women the experience of a dominant asshole at the lowest possible cost to themselves, but a consequence of this is that they are giving women all the tingle-inducing benefits of being with a dominant man without requiring those women to give up any of their state-supported power (VAWA, false-DV, false-rape, no-fault, CS) over their “partner”.

Roissy once compared a world in which all men learned game to one in which all women dropped 20 pounds and started dressing like women again — who would really benefit in either case? Seen in this light, PUA/Game is all about sustaining a feminist utopia in which women get everything their own way, and men not only pay for it all, but make the little dearies’ panties wet as well.

In Conclusion

These are not groups that are really going to get along.

Fortunately, as TFH says, most men are incapable of understanding game, and there are deeper structural problems with a society and economy that marginalizes its men.

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10 Responses to MRA/PUA Hate

  1. Nergal says:

    I get all the pussy I want,but I don’t want much of it any more. No matter what you do, or how tight your “game” is, you have to listen to at least 3 hours of inane,mind-numbing,droning bullshit delivered in a chirping,saccharine-sweet,fake chipper voice that either raises the inflection at the end like a question is being asked when a statement is being made or is spattered with random punctuations of “Ohmigawd!” and annoying bouts of retarded giggling.People are saying it’s all the porn,this hyper-unrealistic porn is desensitizing men to women. It’s not the porn that desensitizes men to women, it’s that horrendous psyops style of conversation that they affect. That shit makes me want to drive an ice pick into my own brain.I identify more with the MRA label,but I don’t give a shit what PUA’s want to do.

    I only know of about 3 MRA’s that have said they can’t get laid or could reasonably be said to be “whining”. Fuck, a lot of MRA’s are fucking married,bro.Besides that, this whole “can’t get laid” thing is a bunch of crap. You’re telling me, that in this day and age, there are people who can’t get any pussy? Come the fuck on.Everybody can get a woman to spread her legs. Women get wet for Animal Planet specials on mating chimpanzees.

  2. Will S. says:

    Then there’s us. We’re ‘red-pill paleocons’; not interested in marrying slut / ex-sluts, and recognizing marriage isn’t for everyone, though some of us are married; we recognize that Game is useful for those who wish to find and keep a woman. So, we’re not quite like Oz Conservative or TTH.

  3. mgtow says:

    then you have whore-mongering MGTOWs vs ghost MGTOWs…

  4. CL says:

    Does Grerp really belong with Sofia and Haley? Seems an odd combo. I am, however, honoured to be included with LGR in the doormat category.

    [You could argue that each of Sofia, Haley, and Grerp belongs in her own category, but the taxonomy was already getting out of hand. I grouped ’em under the “females who don’t seem to raise manosphere hackles” bucket because, hey, close enough. I think the commonality is that all three are pretty inner-directed in their writing, and stand a bit apart from the blogosphere. I don’t think they have the “someone on the Internet is wrong” gene required to really make some enemies.]

  5. CL says:

    That makes sense and I kind of realised that later. LOL @ the “someone on the Internet is wrong” gene.

    7man was trying to figure out which category he would fit in last night and none really works, so I came up with “Tin Foil Hat Libertarians”, which would definitely include Keoni and probably Dalrock. Can’t say the manophere is a dull bunch, can ya!

  6. lgrobins says:

    A good analysis. “Other girls” fits for me, although Christian, I don’t mesh with the Christian girls. They tend to also hold non-Christians to Christian standards and get upset when the non- Christians don’t comply or act nice. There are also those who come across as being too good to take sides (“MRAs are no better than feminists”),and therefore write off all MRAs with one fell swoop.


  7. P Ray says:

    Good taxonomy. I’m saving it!
    I don’t know where I fit in, except:
    Mind your ass, nobody will mind it for you; watch what people say not what they do; if a wrong decision is going to cost you your health, test first; most women choose the men they’re with.
    Wonder what that makes me?

  8. CL says:

    @ P Ray

    most women choose the men they’re with

    Unless they’re being held hostage, I’m not sure about the “most” here!

  9. sarita says:

    Those who disagree with sofia would unlikely have been able to post it on her blog as she banned dissenters and moderated her comments. A good number of people gave up on sofia. When she first came to the sphere she was anally pumped and dumped by some loser and asked roissy for help. In her first incarnation, lesenjournal, most got along with her because she was vulnerable. She even blogged about how she spent time in a mental institution after a failed suicide attempt. In her later blogs she became increasingly angry and disingenuous, and particularly critical of women as a whole for faults she herself possessed, primarily her sluttiness (having webcam sex, etc.), overrating her looks, and bringing issues she had with her boyfriend (another blogger) into her blog to get readers involved. She also keeps lying about her age, which is a tad weird given the fact that she’s in her early 20’s– there isn’t much of a difference between 24 and 22.

    She also regularly blogged about euthanising people based on their ability to possess empathy…please take a moment to note the irony.

  10. P Ray says:

    When she first came to the sphere she was anally pumped and dumped by some loser and asked roissy for help.
    How many good men did she turn down for the loser? That never seems to get answered.
    It’s almost as if … women never choose men so men are always at fault. How convenient.

    MRA, MGTOW and PUA can come to agreement … once it’s accepted that women choose whom they want to be with but men are the ones who can walk away before a marriage.
    When put in the perspective that “just as women think men can be replaced, so should men think the same” … the equality that women want is going to be something they’re really going to hate…

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